Ep 14: Lizzy Burden

Lizzy Burden is a reporter at Bloomberg.  

She covers the UK economy, including trade, the Bank of England and the Treasury, for Bloomberg.com and The Terminal. She also writes the weekly Beyond Brexit newsletter and contributes to Bloomberg TV, radio, podcasts and Quicktake, the social media channel. 

Lizzy is a regular guest on the BBC, Sky News and Times Radio, and hosts events, including for the Confederation of British Industry, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and British American Business.

Listed as one of MHP's 30 under 30 journalists for her city and business coverage, previously she was an economics reporter at The Telegraph, a graduate trainee at The Times, presented CoronaNomics TVand produced BBC Daily Politics.

Before journalism, Lizzy was a fashion model across five continents for eight years.

https://www.bloomberg.com/authors/ATuCHCre-aE/lizzy-burden

Transcript

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Thank you so much for joining us on discover economics. How did I get here? So just who or what is an economist, there's an economic lens for every topic that you can possibly think of. The economists in our podcast are motivated by a desire to change the world. And their belief that better data and better understanding are key to achieving this change. I'm very excited and enthusiastic about learning more about what economics can offer us as a society. And what are the options when it comes to careers for young people. It's been an absolute delight to do this series. And to learn more to indulge my noisiness and to get to ask so many questions. The questions I'm hoping you as listeners will also have wanted to ask to thank you so much for listening. So this week, we have Lizzy Burden. Lizzy is a reporter at Bloomberg covering the Bank of England, the Treasury, the UK economy and trade. She previously worked at the Telegraph and the times presented crona nomics TV and produced BBC daily politics. Lizzy is a regular guest on the BBC Sky News on times radio, and has hosted events including for the Confederation of British industry, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Bristol economics festival and British American business before journalism Lizzy was a fashion model across five continents for eight years. On to a living in New York. She assisted in the production of documentary films, including Gerald R. Ford, broadcast by National Geographic on PBS is American Experience series of she graduated in history from the University of Cambridge. And there are already a million questions for me from that bio. Welcome, Lizzy. It's lovely to have you. Thanks for having me. No problem. So I'm gonna dive right in. We're going to take a little this has been I do my virtual wiggly screen going back in time, which for you isn't that long ago because you're super young. But I want to take you back to where you grew up. And what were you like at school? A big nerd. I was born in Manila in the Philippines. My mom's Filipino, my dad's British. And we moved to the UK when I was one. And I grew up in Wilmslow down the road from baton and I went to State School for primary. And then I got a scholarship to go to Wellington girls, which is one of the best independent schools in the country. Amazing. Yeah, I was just so lucky to go there. And speaking of my nerdiness, I remember distinctly walking around with a suitcase on wheels backpack and running over the Latin teacher's feet. And she wasn't mad because it was me the nerd. So that's the kind of kid I was. Yeah, I was just saying to my niece the other day that in my final year at secondary school, I used to go into the staff room and make myself and the teachers cups of tea. And she just was horrified like rule derived me like, Oh, that's so uncool. I said, Yeah, I got free tea and biscuits. So who's the loser? Really? The honoree would have been friends? Absolutely. Oh, so what? What were you interested in at school? What kind of subjects Did you focus on? I did maths, history, economics and politics a level and I did Latin and Greek, in addition for GCSE and French because you have to Wow. So I did like languages, but I didn't take them on. But I wasn't particularly one way or the other numerous literate, but I, oh, well, I was hopefully both but you know, I'm biassed one way or the other. But I really wasn't into science. If I was going to make a broad sweep that was not for me. But yeah, I like to write and really, I was thinking about it. I like I like learning about the adult world. I was an only child. So you know, the conversations at home were about how the world worked. And that's really what was interesting to me. That's amazing. And then of course, because you started modelling quite young, you got even more, you know, you got the chance to travel and, you know, fast into quite an adult world. So when I was 17, I marched into a modelling agency in Manchester and demanded that they signed me because I needed I wanted to have a gap year and I couldn't face the idea of working in a supermarket for six months and then going travelling and doing all these cliched gap PR things, it was brilliant. You know, it was it was an adult world. I got to work with amazing designers and creatives across the spectrum, and I did have to grow up quickly, but it was great when I got to university I'd already done that. That's amazing. That must have been such an Yeah, like educational experience like makes it sound really boring. But the way you're describing it because I think again, I think we sound a bit similar in this like I just love learning new things and having a new experience. Like if someone phones me up tomorrow and goes, right we're gonna do this thing for a few months. Do you want to come I'll be like, Yeah, let's do it. You know? Yeah, it sounds like that was you with age. I think it's a bit like why I want to be journalist I do like being a fly on the wall to things and I couldn't see myself being a model forever. But to have a front row seat into this amazing industry, I wasn't gonna say no to that. Oh, absolutely not. And you know, there's obviously all the international travel and all that other stuff that goes along with it. But what an amazing learning experience, I mean, did you finish your modelling? And and can you step back into academia if you like, so it was only ever meant to be a gap year, and I went only if I'm honest, the reason I started modelling was because I was so heartbroken. I didn't go into Oxford, that I wanted to stick two fingers apart them and reapply to Cambridge. And I got in, thankfully, the next year. And no, Dan, thank you went off to do history. And I carried on modelling throughout University, it helped me pay the bills. And then after university, I wanted to move to New York, it was my only ambition as a 21 year old. And it was my ticket to a visa for the US. So I did it for another bit of time whilst working in documentary. So modelling was a ticket for me to many things. That's amazing. So the documentary filmmaking and that that side of things, and the journalism that was happening all at the same time. Yeah, I'm one of those people. I just can't do one thing and be happy with it. Definitely. Really. Yeah. I mean, I'm that's why I like Bloomberg. I'm kind of doing lots of projects at once, and they don't think I'm aluna. But that's certainly what I was like before. It just keeps me stimulated. Yeah. I wonder, I got diagnosed with ADHD last year at the ripe old age of 40. And it helps explain quite a lot of similar. wondering, need to have seven things. Yeah. I mean, this sounds amazing. Just, there's so many questions, I don't know if we're gonna get through them in an hour. But I'll try and focus on the economic side of things, and then hopefully, we'll be able to convince you to come back and answer more questions. But the whole, the whole thing about discover economics is that, you know, economics as a field, really benefits from getting people with lots of different life experiences coming into it. And you like Ben, as a journalist have that kind of, again, like you said, the fly on the wall viewpoint of economics as a, as a sector, as an industry as a career for some of the people that you interview, and you talk to all the time. So in your time, kind of focusing on on like the Bank of England and economics, because like you said, You do a lot of things. It's not just one, but you're looking through the lens of economics for quite a lot of this interviews and and journalistic pieces that you've worked on. What's your viewpoint over the timeframe that you've been working parallel? What's your viewpoint on the industry and diversity within the industry? Well, as a female, I do try to quote female economists more, but it's not always possible. And I don't always want to just talk to them about female issues, I want to talk to them about any old issue, because you know, we want to get that perspective. But it is something that came that was really highlighted to me by the Claudia som blog last year. I don't know if you saw it, but she was talking about the state of the debate in economics, and it can be particularly hostile on Twitter. And that was something that I walked into, I started at the Telegraph, and it was right in the middle of the Brexit debate. And I was getting really horrible criticism on Twitter. And it spoke to what Claudia som would later complain about. And she just said, it can be very male dominated, and it can be brutal, the criticism that people get, and maybe when you're in a lecture theatre, that's just intellectual sparring. I'm used to that at Cambridge, that was actually something that I loved. But when it's on social media, and it gets a load of trolls jump on that bandwagon, it can be really horrible. And so I have interviewed lots of economists from diverse background. Aaron came on Corona nomics, and we've had a steady flow on our YouTube programme, currently nomics. You know, the Nobel Prize winning economist, a woman. And again on Corona nomics, we made an effort to balance it, and constantly have female voices, other diverse voices, but I am aware that it's not necessarily making as much progress as one might like, yeah, it's funny you say that, about coming at it from a journalist point of view because obviously, as a journalist, you're expected to be visible in public on social media quite a lot. And that obviously brings with it all of those things that you've described. One of the things that's come up actually when I've been doing this podcast is I'm obviously looking for you know, do my research before I interview people and I'm looking for how active people are on social because then it makes it easier for me to learn a little bit about them, what are they passionate about, you know, etc. Before I talk to them. And one of the things that I've talked to a number of people about is actually, it comes up a lot when I talk specifically to black women on the internet, who there's a whole corner of the internet in it, you know, that is vitriolic in that there's part of their psyche that, you know, they feel like they want to be visible, because it helps young black women to see like, Look, here's someone who looks like me. And they're in the public eye, and they're doing that thing that I want to do. And that's amazing. And they want to, you know, blaze a trail for them to follow. However, you also have to take care of your own mental health, putting yourself in that position is Yeah, it's opening a lot of doors to negativity that connectively impact you. And that doesn't help anyone either. And, of course, as a journalist, you there's there's different pressures on you. But I was thinking about it from the perspective of an economist and trying to be visible in that space in that like very white male, upper middle class, middle class in the there's a number of non diverse labels that we could put on the majority people who work in economics as a field. And I wonder, I'm very protective. When people come up and see, you look a certain way you have a certain background, you must speak up, you must be visible, because that's going to make it easier for people to get involved. And I personally, I want to flip it around a little bit, and put more pressure on the employers and the institutions to protect people who they need to be visible. Does that make sense? It does. I should say that. I was at the telegraph. I used to get hatred on Twitter, because because I worked for the telegraph. Apparently I caused Brexit. Oh, excellent. But then at the same time for the same story below the line on the telegraph on the comment section. They would hate the remainer that I must be because I was young female, you know, mixed race, they would say go back to the fashion section. But the important thing is the reason I'm using social media is because I want to spread awareness with the stories I'm writing 100% I don't generally tweet my opinions. That's not my job. I am a reporter, I might I might put in some analysis, but I'm not a columnist so I don't see it as my role to be putting my opinions everywhere. And in general, I find that LinkedIn is a much friendlier place, and it's also a more professional place. And I think it's great for students as well. I see lots of people posting their achievement, humble bragging, I'm all for that. Yeah. But in terms of networking, it's great for students it's great for me as a journalist, I get lots of people who are interested in my stories and maybe want to add an angle because it's affected their business or something and they'll write to me privately and then that's the next story that I write so there's definitely a difference between the media that's really interesting because I mean I hear exactly what you're saying about LinkedIn and it's something that I've I speak at school sometimes just about digital skills and also like don't fear technology there's a lot of benefits and and thankfully with that conversations moved on a lot since the last time I'd speak to a school but one of the things I was pushed was LinkedIn because because I you know you can approach people and find out how did they get here and if they're doing something that you're interested in, you can maybe ask them questions about it so it's really interesting to hear you say that and I also love what you said about you know, you don't need to give your opinion on something necessarily in social media, you're sharing your stories to get to get them out into the world. And that's something that strikes me as being very similar to the economists I've spoken to by their research you know, they are neutral about it, they go into it from a place of I want to collect as much information as possible to get the best data and then I'll report on the data that I have I'm not editorialising the data I'm getting it together and putting it forward Let me take a step back a little bit actually because it sounds like you did economics us economics was a subject you studied at school and like said you do a lot of languages then you did history at university and you had all of these things happening kind of simultaneously. What was it that kept you interested in economics as a subject and and and then then reporting on it and being so entrenched in that area, especially for the UK. So when I was at school, I won this essay competition for the Royal economics society, the young economist of the year and I did an essay on Game Theory Thank you got 1000 pounds, which is a lot to roll Yeah, it's amazing Thank you know it to Melbourne for the summer on my money. But I did this essay on Game Theory applied to the dating game. And it was just this is one of my proudest achievements as a when I was a young person, and through my degree, I always picked economic history modules. Even though it wasn't studying the math side of economics, it was I like to read about the theory through the events of history. And then I wasn't really connected to economics professionally for a few years when I was working in documentary, I was doing historical documentaries, but not economics. But I was reading economics books in my private time. And then after documentary, I took an odd turn. And I worked at Aldi, the supermarket, and did their graduate scheme as an area manager, so in the southwest of England, and it was bringing it back to supply and demand and just, you know, all the things that I had been learning in economics at school, and then after that did a bit more modelling, but decided that I wanted to be a journalist. And I always knew that I wanted to do politics or economics, but I kind of found that everybody's got an opinion about politics. And with economics, some of the political journalists are saying that really makes my eyes glaze over. It doesn't happen that way for me, and it's a worldview, it's a bit more black and white, not that there isn't a debate there. But it's grounded in the numbers. And if the numbers warranted, it will be the front page. You know, it is the worst recession in 300 years. And in that way, it's a bit more meritocratic. If you land a great scoop in economics, journalism, or financial journalism more generally, it should, it's going to be on the front page, because it moves the market in a big way. So profound, having been lucky enough to get my gigs in economics journalism, it's worked out for me, I absolutely love covering it. So I don't know how it happened. But I do you enjoy a lot. Oh, wow, that sounds amazing. I love how you talk about that. Because something that's come up in some of the other interviews that we've done is talking about how everyone that you know, when you say politics, like everyone has an opinion and politics and, and actually, to me, politics is something that you use as a lens to look at various things. And actually, economics as well. But it's so interesting, the way you described it just now, as being like you said, slightly less sleazy, like, because even if people have opinions on it, it's not so personal. But even though the economy is a very personal thing, the way I think people talk about it and think about it, they don't personalise every outcome, let's say versus how we might feel about politics, there is nonetheless a personal element to it. So when you're talking about the pandemic, and the recession, you've got all these people who are unemployed, and all these human cases to go and talk about. And so it's not just numbers. You know, I'm still writing long reads, where I'm doing really heartfelt interviews with people about their situation. And at the end of the day, the thing that they really care about is being able to put food on the table before anything else. So that's why, again, I think it's it's a worldview, but it's the number one thing, it's just the way I see things. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that's come up before as well we had Andy Haldane on, and while he was still at the Bank of England, and what we were talking about with him is when he went out outside of London, I didn t communities and talk to them about the economy. And it's like, Oh, I can't remember what year this was. But it's in the episode, guys, if you watch it back and was the where he talked about who he was going into communities and seeing, you know, the recessions over what is happening for you. And the people in the room be like, What are you talking about, like no here love, like, that's not what's happening here, and how valuable that was to him. And it is like, I love hearing experiences like thought and how important he found that to be. And obviously he brings that to a certain group of economists that hopefully, if they've not thought about doing that will shift them towards doing a little bit more involved getting out into the communities that like say that that are represented by these numbers. But I suppose that what it does is the way you described it just now that you know, people want to put food on the table, they want to have a job, they want to have a good quality of life, they want a better future for their children. Those things are kind of universal, no matter your political leaning, no matter the newspaper, you read your monster, you know too many things that I do wonder if we wouldn't all benefit from looking through things through the lens of economics and rather than politics a lot of the time. And something that I talked to Ben about is I think for for the independent, he done a couple of videos that were looking at an economics and outcome, let's say but like looking at something that was in the news about the economy, and just breaking it down so that everyone can understand exactly what it means. And that kind of economic literacy, I think is a vital part of getting more people into the field because it can be intimidating. 100% and that was the goal of Corona nomics. Ben and I presented it really to make economics as accessible as politics and through, we were focusing on the pandemic, as the name would suggest the whole way through, but breaking it down so that someone with an interest, but not a degree in economics wouldn't would understand it. And like Ben, I made lots of videos at the Telegraph and still do at Bloomberg even more. So now explaining these issues. And it's important to not get stuck in the jargon. And I think that's part of the difference between an economist and an economics journalist, because we're doing that communication. On the one hand, were taking the stories from people and reporting them with the hope that someone like Andy Haldane, I'll read it and integrate it into his policymaking. On the other hand, we're taking what Andy Haldane is saying in a speech for the Bank of England and translating the details of it for the everyday reader or for the trader that might want to make some money off the decision. Yeah. And arguably, you guys actually have much more of an impact over whether children will come up in the world wanting to be an economist, because you've done the hard work of actually explaining more about economic literacy than then some economists will, because they don't have that public facing side, not all of them, certainly, because that's something that's come up, we've spoken to economists who their research focuses on LGBTQ issues or family economics, domestic violence, you know, and international, you know, the environment that just so many different ways of using economics as a way to research an issue. But arguably, that's not what's in front of people in the news. So having people like yourself, bringing that to the public, public attention, arguably could have a much bigger impact on whether we see more students from diverse backgrounds going into it as a field. How does that feel? How does the pressure feel? I think it's a bit of a shame that if you only see economics as Bank of England decisions, or inflation reports, or the pmis, or just these numbers that come out regularly, that's not all it is. And as I say, it's about the human stories. It's, it's about what's happening in the real economy and in wages, people's jobs, that careers that they've spent their lives building towards. And and as you also say, it's the different lenses that you can apply to literally anything. I mean, there's this book by Ryan Bourne economics in one virus, and he explains the pandemic through the lens of economics, kind of to teach you it's a great, I would recommend it. It's a great kind of introduction, we'll share it in the notes. Oh, I also want some links to the videos that you've done share in the notes as well. Thank you, because I know that they'll be teachers listening, going, cancer, right? You've spoken about those videos, but where are they? So all together and put them in the description for everyone? If that's okay, yeah, for sure. I did this interview with Angus Deaton, the Nobel laureate, about his book, deaths of despair. And we were talking about a wealth tax and how that would work in order to pay for all this spending that we've done. And thinking about, you know, the unintended consequences of something like that. And not just oh, you know, it's not right to tax well, rich people more, you don't need to, you can go through the more logical arguments of it when you start from the position of economics. Absolutely. Yeah, it's like that thing of keeping it personal, but sometimes taking the emotion out of the decisions. So you've done so many different things. And as I mentioned earlier, you're super young. So there are a lot of decades of other stuff that we expect. Like no pressure, but you know, we want to keep going at this trajectory is what I'm seeing Lizzie. But what would you say so far that you're most proud of just for yourself, career wise, etc? And then I'm going to ask the question again, but in a slightly different way. So I'll let you ever think about that. I'm not because there are so many things to pick from just that it feels like things have built really slowly. And it's not one thing in particular, it's I've been working hard for a long time. And I just feel really privileged to be able to do what I'm doing to have the skills across media to be able to be presenting for Bloomberg TV, something about what to expect from the Chancellor's budget to be able to interview Nobel laureate economists and at least hold my own in the conversation with them and have the access to them. But through the pandemic. I'm really proud that I have gone out there and spoken to people and heard how they have really been affected and I'm not just sitting at home covering the numbers, as I'm saying, you know, I'm trying to report the real story behind the numbers all the time, and someone is letting me do that Bloomberg is paying me to do that, what a privilege. But you are such a valuable voice in there, like, people like me are very grateful that you are in there doing because I genuinely think I honestly mean it. Because I think that having, like, specifically you, because that's the thing you you come with, you know, you come with all of your experiences. And that obviously impacts how you report things in the voice that you bring. And I think particularly Your voice is very valuable. So I'm quite grateful for that, too. Thank you. I mean, working at Aldi, you know, I literally stack shelves and sat on the tail, and you worked your way up to be the area manager. But you had to start doing that, when I was reporting on the impact of the pandemic on retail have been in the shelf stock and shoes, you know, forced to deal with the public day in day out. Can you imagine doing that in a pandemic? I'm glad that I did that back then. So that it added to my reporting now Yeah, it's just a privilege to be doing what I'm doing there in terms of things that have had impact that I'm proud of. I interviewed some garni and banana farmers about how important it would be to get a trade deal with the UK because there was a bit of a delay. And it turned out in the end that pressure apparently, and helped to bring the momentum to actually get a treat a post Brexit trade deal. UK Garner, amazing Yeah, and when the Guardian banana farmers write to you, and thank you, I felt amazing. And it's little things like that that happened, you know, quite often that you just think to yourself, I'm really, really happy that I do my job. Yeah, I mean, that is amazing. As a journalist, and I just wanted to kind of flip that question slightly, maybe not just what are you most proud of? But what's been this would be hard to pinpoint one. So I don't mind if you if you want to maybe word the question kind of differently for you for your answer. But you know, who who have you interviewed that has stood out to you the most, for whatever reason, let's put it that way. I really always love picking up the phone to Jim O'Neill. So he's a former chair of Goldman Sachs asset management, he used to be a treasury minister. He's know that which is one of the best things about him. And he you know, he's a die hard man, United fan. He has brilliant ideas about things. He sees things in different ways. And, you know, he's been a champion of the Northern powerhouse. And, you know, this, this has become the top of the agenda, the levelling up agenda. And so, you know, we'll have really interesting conversations about things that he ideas he has, like he wanted to change the Bank of England's target, from inflation to nominal GDP, because in the wake of the pandemic, he didn't think that it was as relevant to be targeting inflation anymore because we're into this whole new phase of the debate where we were at the time where we were considering negative interest rates because in order to encourage people to spend their money, the interest rate was already so low that they couldn't cut it any further without going negative. And so he was saying scrap that let's go from inflation into nominal GDP let's think about the growth of the economy rather than inflation. So every single time I call him I just enjoy hearing someone who sounds like me but he's got a sense of humour and does does economics. Yes, that's good. I mean, that's been my privilege actually doing this podcast is like interview people, like you say he do economics but this mile, and aren't afraid to have those kinds of interesting ideas, not necessarily just doing things, how they've always been done. That's so fascinating. I could just imagine the two of you kind of sitting down with a cup of tea, you know, I mean, if it was back home, it'd be a rich tea biscuit. I don't know if it'd be the Manchester who's just sprung to mind that I spoke to recently was the chief executive of prayer. Now, when I'm in the office, I will eat a prayer almost every day. I'm quite boring. No, I support that. We were talking about how the world will look with more working from home. And it was just so interesting to speak to someone who literally has business depends on how many days a week people go back to the office. And so you know, to speak to someone who runs a company that you walk past more than once, if you work in the City of London every single day. That's a privilege. Absolutely. See, this is why I'm gonna frame this into a question but but just from what from everything you've said so far, and this is why we could definitely feel more than an hour. All the things you've described, like if you take things right back to the big Like you said, your kind of curiosity and interest in economics and interest in all of these subjects are kind of new, the foundation that everything else is built on and kind of taking you to these places. And so if you were to define, let's say economics for young students who are thinking about it as not just their future careers, but maybe just thinking about it as a subject that they can embrace, and then use as a lens to look at other things, and how would you define it for them, as you see it, the textbook definition, but I do actually think that it applies is it's about how people manage their wants and desires in the face of scarcity, when they've got a load of choices. But things are scared, what are they going to choose? And that when you break it? And if any economic story down is what it comes to? Yeah, that's a textbook definition. Yeah, but you're right, it doesn't? Well, it's funny because I speak in cliches all day. But I always say, well, it's a cliche, because it's true. So well, the one thing that I really didn't want to say is that it's all about work, because it's not, you can talk about anything that doesn't involve work, and still be talking about people's incentives and choices. And that's why economics so helpful. Absolutely. And that thing about incentives and choices, I think is really important, because that's come up in a number of interviews. I mean, right back to the first episode with Rachel Griffiths, where we talked about her research into obesity, and why people make the decisions they do about food and about produce, and all those kinds of things, exactly, as you've just described, and, and you know, that that will be the same where you make a judgement call about which job you might go for, or whether you leave your job, or whether you move or whether you have children, like every single decision in life, you know, it comes down to these things. And for young people, what would you say is valuable about like, having economic, economic literacy, because you're going to be making choices all the time. I mean, that essay I mentioned that I wrote for the Royal economic society applied game theory to the dating game, you make their choices that you may be making. I mean, I will point out that that was way before Tinder, it was way that you're going to be making decisions about which A Levels you're going to study which courses you're going to do at university, you know, which friends you're going to make, which internships you're going to apply for, and everything that you do is going to have unintended consequences, it's going to have things that you miss out on, because you chose one path instead of the other. And you need to wait, wait up, and there are also going to be other people involved in those things. And it's helpful to understand how they're making their decisions. So it will give you a logical worldview of how to make all these decisions that come up in your life, I love it. And I bet there are some students out there that can listen to this, or some parents listening to this and thinking about their child and how they argue with them. Already, in that, I bet they're the understanding that every single argument you make, and I use arguments, not in the kind of negative term, but you know, the discussion that you might be having, that there are so many different factors, and unforeseen, you know, outcomes and things like that, that knowing that doing economics, and having that kind of literacy in economics, will give you a good foundation for understanding kind of where other people are coming from and exactly like see how people make decisions and why. I mean, I was already interested in economics before I've volunteered to do this podcast, but I tell you what, I've learned so much. And it's when you said about reading some of these books for for fun in your free time. I was like ask me, because it's, you know, it's a valuable use of your time. It's interesting, and it gives you something that you can use and apply to so many different things. So my final question just before I let you escape, because I imagine it's very strange for you being the journalist side and and having some random who is not a journalist asked you questions. Well, I really appreciate your patience with me. But my final question is, and so what advice would you give to teachers and parents, who are kind of talking to young people, economic economics is an interest or a career, and just want to throw something in here before before you answer and not. I used to teach Effie. And I was all I always used to say to people, look, it's the naughty kids and the kids that are really challenging that I used to love. Because they're the ones that I really used to feel like you're gonna do something interesting. Like, I know you're a pain in the bum. But you're probably going to do something really interesting with your life, or at least I hope you will. But I would definitely think about economics has been a subject that you could point some kids towards that maybe they may be slightly less direction than the other kids in your class or than their siblings. Economics is a good place for them to be actually and obviously their their skills and interests will have an impact on that but i but it's not a bad direction. approach people. And when you feel like yeah, they're not sure what they want to do next. It's not a bad show, as far as I can see. But what do you think? What What would you What advice would you give whatever it is that you love, it's going to be a business. So I may have worked in fashion, but there's a whole business of fashion behind it. And it can't hurt to do an economics degree. If you're scratching your head about what you should be doing at university, you're bound to learn something about the way the world works, and how the business of something you love works by studying economics. Frankly, it pays well, the jobs that come out of it. It's not said that much, I guess, but financial journalism actually does pay pretty well. And it's a complete myth that you have to be broke, if you're a journalist, and I mentioned that I had a scholarship, I'm not from a really wealthy background, it matters to me what I earn, and I want to be able to provide for a family one day, and so it's, it's a smart decision to make as well. And if you if you want, you can go and do things that really benefit the world. You know, you could work for a massive organisation, like the World Bank, or the UN, or you could be an economist at the Treasury, you know, I know people who were behind the furlough scheme and making the leaders of that work in really rapid time. And they made a huge difference to all those people whose jobs were on the line because of lockdown. So isn't that inspirational. And if you're even vaguely interested in anything that we've talked about, read Freakonomics because it's hilarious. It applies to things like sumo wrestlers, and I think handing out free doughnuts and why that's actually better than paying for them. And that's where I started getting interested in it. And I watched the film, A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe. And, you know, it's thinking about how these theories can just apply to real life. And once you start getting into it, you'll graduate on to reading The Economist, and you'll start finding the FT, the Financial Times more interesting. And you'll find yourself eventually, when you read the newspaper, opening it in the middle of the times, rather than on the back pages at the sport. And it's like Russian literature, somehow, you'll find yourself actually enjoying this thing that was really difficult to understand at first, and then you'll start to realise that maybe power actually lies with corporations, and it's money that's making the world go round. And once you can understand that, it will help you to make a difference in your career, and in in life and make a difference to the rest of the world. I mean, not to put too many pressure on everyone. There's a lot of work to be done. I'm just a journalist, but there are you know, there are people who you've heard on this podcast, who are doing big things, and really shaping the world that we live in. And you know, if you study economics is a gateway to doing that. Yeah, I mean, I object to that term, just a journalist, you're not, because I think that what you do is incredibly valuable. And there's an awful lot of journalists not not in this space, but you know, who are shaping the world and society in a slightly different way that maybe is less beneficial and useful. Let's see. But I think that will mean number one, thank you so much for your time and for living through what must be quite painful experience for you having someone else interview you. So I really appreciate it. And we're hoping to get you know, some questions from students and teachers for the next season. So if you're available, we'd love to get you back in and I bet people have some really interesting questions for you that are much better than mine. And if you'd be up for coming back, yes, yes, definitely. And that's that for that episode. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. And if you want to get in touch with any questions, please visit our website discover economics dot code at UK, where you'll also find loads of useful resources. And if you've enjoyed the podcast, remember to go to Apple podcasts rate and review. Also remember to subscribe through whichever podcast app you're using to view. Always get any new episodes as soon as they're published. See you in the next episode.