Communication Strategist (Discover Economics) at The Royal Economic Society
Established by the Royal Economic Society, Discover Economics aims to broaden the appeal of economics as a subject and career for 15–17-year-olds from under-represented groups.
Founder, MSc candidate at LSE, First Class BSc Economics Graduate and experienced communications strategist with a demonstrated history of working in technology and social organisations. Skilled in data analysis, project management and social media, with a particular interest on how diversity influences digital innovation.
Passionate about promoting financial understanding in young women and an avid advocate for increasing diversity in technology and economic institutions.
Thank you so much for joining us on discover economics. How did I get here? So just who or what is an economist, there's an economic lens for every topic that you can possibly think of. The economists in our podcast are motivated by a desire to change the world. And their belief that better data and better understanding are key to achieving this change. I'm very excited and enthusiastic about learning more about what economics can offer us as a society. And what are the options when it comes to careers for young people. It's been an absolute delight to do this series. And to learn more to indulge my noisiness and to get to ask so many questions. The questions I'm hoping you as listeners will also have wanted to ask to thank you so much for listening. On today's episode, we have Anuoluwapo Adenuga. And although Anu is currently working on her MSC at the London School of Economics, focusing on the effect of culture and bias in finance and technology, with a particular interest in how diversity and digital technology influence financial innovation, she recently completed her first class honours degree in economics from the University of Buckingham and last year, she launched black girl money, a digital community built to empower women of colour, to learn about money, and to encourage successful black women to share what they've learned about finance and educate other women on achieving financial stability. So welcome. It's lovely to have you. Hi. Hi, Jennifer. I'm glad to be here. excited to have a conversation. Yes. Well, I already have so many questions. And also just to put it out there that Anu also works on the Discover Economics social media strategy and supports the campaign in many, many more ways than agreeing to be my guest, which I very much appreciate. Of course, of course. So I'm gonna dive right in now for you because you are nice and young, and so much younger than me, and just at the beginning of your career, and probably full of enthusiasm that some of us lost decades ago. So this is nice. I like it. So I'm gonna ask you to go back in your memory. Not actually too far. Okay, but tell us on a What were you like at school. So I was always because of my background and where I'm from my parents were immigrants to United Kingdom. So I was always very, like, academically driven. So I always wanted, I was always very ambitious. So I always wanted to get the best grades, I always wanted to get the top of the class. I did not. But I always wanted to. And I think that ambition really fueled my career, a secondary school during my GCSEs a levels, so I did get good grades at GCSE, I do get good grades and a levels. And that really fueled everything I do today. Luckily, I went to a school where I wasn't necessarily aware of lack of diversity in anything yet to learn economics. So he didn't really affect the way I viewed the world growing up. But as a student, I was just I was I was just a very academically driven so I was probably very boring. Friends with at that point, I'm sure that's not true. It was. It was it was an interesting experience. In particular, when I started my A Levels. That's when I began to have an interest in economics. That's when I did economics for the first time, it was during my A Levels. And at that point, I thought I was going to be a doctor, I wanted to study medicine. But when I started doing a console of what it was really such an eye opener, my interest completely changed. It was like, I could see this new way to solve problems. Because ultimately, when people ask me what the type of person you are, I've always been a problem solver from school from I'm the oldest of five siblings. So Oh, there's a lot of problem solving there. Yes. So I needed I needed to always be a problem solver say that's the type of person I was at school, probably very academically driven. And problems have. Also that's quite a change from wanting to be a doctor to going into economics, it's really good that that that you found that subject like a level before, you know, before you make those big decisions about University. Yes, honestly, because before that, I didn't think I didn't study economics at all, I do have an understanding of what it was. And I think that's a common issue for loads of loads of 14 15 16 year olds I talked to because they're not aware of the subject necessarily, or what the subject is. And I think because I know not a lot of schools give economics or a level. I think that that's a significant problem in deterring a lot of people from taking up a subject at university or within their career because if I never took economics A Levels I wouldn't be where I am today, I wouldn't have achieved the things I've achieved today. And I wouldn't have picked a certain interest of mine because honestly, I think it was like but the perfect subject for me. If you could put an economic student or someone who could be a potential economist in a box, I think I would fit a lot of those boxes and I would never, ever I have come across the subject if I didn't take it at a level, so I'm very happy for that. I'm very glad for that. And I think a huge way to permit the subject is to push it more at a level for children to take. Definitely. And I know certainly when I went to school in the 80s and 90s, like that, and in Scotland as well, I think there is that even less opportunity to study economics. And some of the conversations that we've had with other guests is about how much when they took that first class or just happened to learn that first taster about economics, how different it was to what they thought, like, what was the thing that stood out to you when you started doing it? So I remember my very first economics lesson, this was like, in September when you start your A level, so as they don't have as is anymore, but it was as and the first thing, my economics teacher, I think, said to me was economics, at its core is the study of unlimited wants, and scarce resources. And that really changed my view of the world, because you never really realise it. Like we, we do economic transactions every day, we buy things we apply for jobs, we go to work, but you don't really no one thinks Oh my God, I'm doing an economic transaction. But when my teacher said that statement, I really began to see almost till today I apply that statement to really change my thinking, I apply that statement to everything I view. So if I'm applying for a job, for example, I'd be like my head is just the way I think it really changed the way I think my head would be, what's the scarce resource in that obviously money and are limited once because I want to buy all sorts of different things. So I think that that really changed my view of not just economics of the world that really honed, I know I previously said, I'm a problem solver, or I'd like to think of myself as a problem solver. So that really honed Gomez gave me a purpose, but I think has really affected me at my undergraduate degree, postgraduate degree, but it's black on Monday with everything I've done. It really honed what I want to do with my life, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, absolutely does. And and you speak about it so succinctly as well. Because I think, you know, with the number of guests, that kind of thing has come up like it comes back to fundamentals like that, we don't need to have huge big explanations, you can simply say like, it's the science of scarcity. It's the you know, it's this, these things, and certainly for me, as listeners know, I'm not an economist, and I don't have a background in economics, like it's people like myself, who are either teachers or parents who you're around young people, and trying to point them in the right direction, or give them advice. And if people like myself, don't even understand that, that basic part of it, you lose out on that enthusiasm that you just demonstrated. So so well, I'm I'm glad you said that, because that's exactly what it is. I feel like to really enjoy economics, you have to start from the basics, the very bottom, which is why it's so important to teach kids economics from when they're younger in the beginning of the academic journey, because that's when you really build a love for it. Because it's such a step by step thing before you're learning about macroeconomics about the government, you want to understand the fundamentals of it, because that's the most interesting part. Everything else is just application in economics, just applying the world around you to the fundamentals. But I think the real desire and the real understanding and the real spark that sparks a lot of people I've talked to even in my undergraduate degree that I talk to on a daily basis, it's they all come back to the whole fundamentals. That's really what piques an interest, because it's, it's really what changes your perspective, in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. And what's been what's been interesting about this past year, just thinking about media and how the media is talking about, you know, stats and economics, but also through economics through lots of different lenses is I've picked up on more people trying to get an understanding of what what's meant, and also I think a lot more newspapers and broadcasters have done like, you know, infographics and explainer videos about what we mean in these changes to the economy, and I'm just imagining that you're for younger siblings. Have they been grilling you about? Excuse me, I've seen this, can you? Or are they fed up with how excited you are about the subject of economics? You know what? I don't think anything they're fed up, or they just don't show it to me. Good. One thing about one thing about my family and my parents is they've really honed this, like I said, this academic mindset or this just curiosity in me and my siblings ever since we were young, so even my youngest brother, he's nine years old. He's watching BBC analysing things that I was I personally was not analysing when I was nine. What was I doing? I think like, I was not analysing the news I can see. So I think they're really fascinated by it. And this pandemic has provided a unique opportunity for everyone like you said, to have an interest in data infographics, statistics on in particular the economy, because You think of a global health pandemic. And right in hand, as we're going through a health crisis, we're going through an economic crisis. And it really shows how the economy how important economics is. And I think this pandemic has really brought light to that. And really, a lot of people have become more interested in what's going on in the society in the economy. And in particular, which I guess leads to my part of the reason I started my brand is their personal finance. Yeah, my siblings, are they they're not back to go back to the question. They haven't quite yet gotten fed up with me. They're still very, they're still very excited. And honestly, I think it's because it's just increasingly relevant for them. If it wasn't as relevant, they'd probably be tired of me talking about numbers all day. I bet you're a bit of an inspiration to them. I imagine you're quite an inspiration to them. But if they're anything like my sister, we probably wouldn't tell each other. But I bet you are. That's perfect. I tried to be I will say I don't try to be but it didn't ever told me that. Sometimes my siblings I do think to a certain extent, they look up to me, and I know that's what I try to do is be my best self. But we're siblings, and inevitably, we like fight every day. But I do I do. I try to inspire them. That's good to hear. Well, I Well, I think that does lead us on really well to black girl money, because I'm sure that's an inspiration to them as well. And I just but just before I dive in some of the things you just said about the pandemic, you know, I particularly so I mean, I, my husband and I together run our own business. And you know, we hire freelancers. And we, we know other people who run businesses, and it just accelerated, I think the impact of any kind of negative downturn, because obviously, recessions usually have a little bit more of a build up, let's say, or a few more warning signs. But obviously, with COVID, COVID came first and everything else was kind of rushed in, like with it. And it's been horrifying. And you know, there's been lots of negative and positive outcomes. I feel like what you're doing with black girl money is so important, because you're right like that financial literacy and understanding, especially for women, especially for different minorities across the country. Like there's so many pockets of populations have been hit harder than everyone else, that I think what you've done with black girl money is so important and really impressive. So I really want to speak to you more about that I have so many questions. I imagine that the catalyst of the pandemic, like how the pandemic has been a catalyst for so many other things potentially been a catalyst for us starting this movement if you like. So tell me what was it that made you launch First of all, so this pandemic, you said, it's obviously been an accelerator for a downfall. But it's been so unique to me personally, in a sense that it's also accelerated innovation on ideas. And so the reason I started black ammonia was because the pandemic started I was in the middle of my undergraduate degree and I was stuck at home and it got to a point I was I was in my third year so I'm getting close to the end and I'm thinking what am I going to do next I need to learn about money I need to learn Luckily, I have had an education in economics but in terms of finance as to what it was I realised I was never taught to me in primary school or secondary school and even in my economics degree I was like I haven't a commerce degree yet so in things in personal finance you don't always learn in economics because economics is such a broad subject so I started doing my research I started looking at investing I started looking at the stock market I started looking at for me personally, it was a way I wanted to build wealth and stability for myself. And they're common across this I was like Why is this not like common knowledge? Like why doesn't Why doesn't everyone know this considering the times we're going through in the middle of a pandemic, everyone not savings are being lost the stock market is on a roller coaster ride, people were losing jobs, people are going furlough and I thought what can I do for my own little bedroom in London? What can I do to make an impact? So to me the first thing was to look at a representation of myself I am a black woman. So I remember one day randomly, I just thought of it and I was I'm just gonna do it. Hence the name black got money. It's not like the was fantastic name. I love it. Oh, thank you. It really honed to the point of what I was trying to do. So it was to empower other women around me to just look into it look into personal finance. And when I started reading the data on it just not not enough women invest not enough women look at the stock market or not or not understand assets, liabilities. It's a very male dominated field. And when I was doing research, every YouTube video, I'd watch every Instagram account, I'd follow every blog post written by men, and I thought there's no representation to this. And it can really be it can really, it can really put someone off. So I thought, let me just be that let me show what I learned. Let me write blogs about what I learn. And that's That was really the start of pac money. It wasn't anything fantastic. It was literally me needing a platform to share everything I'm learning on a daily basis because I was getting so much information in that period of time. And I just, I really, really needed so much to just share that. So I was like, I'm just gonna build the platform myself. And luckily, I did not expect I did not expect it to grow the way that like, honestly, I did not a book. In a week, I had 100 followers in two weeks, it was 200 in three weeks, and it just kept growing. And I was like, wow, okay, people are actually yearning for this information. People want to know this. And part of the reason I think was because a people have the time we're in a pandemic, and be with innovation in technology with how easy it is to invest. Just, there's just been a blow up in people wanting to take control of their finances, understanding that you need multiple sources of income, because in the world we're living in today, it's a pandemic, no one knows what's gonna happen in five years from now. So that was the long one winded way of saying how I started my company. No, it's all it's so interesting, because I follow a lot of the black girl magic, hashtag activity on Instagram and Twitter and everything. And as soon as I saw yours, I was like, This is like the financial embodiment of black girl magic. And that's why I loved it, like, immediately saw it and thought, Wow, this is so aligned. Yeah. And also, I think that you being in your bedroom in London, like I think you're downplaying it, like because that makes it sound like, you know, I just did this little thing. But, you know, like he said, things grew really quickly. And and it's not just that, like, for me, it's the quality of the information that you're putting out there. You know, obviously, you go first class honours degree in economics, you're currently doing your MSC, like you understand the core, you know, what, what this stuff means, and, and what you said earlier about, you know, the lack of kind of basic financial literacy that we just, you know, that is missing in schools, I think, you know, certainly for me, I'm in my 40s, on the mistakes I've made with opening a credit card at some point, because it seems like the right thing to do, and sometimes it is the right thing to do, but you have to understand how credit works. And, and also something that I'm really aware of as a business owner, is how many people run their own businesses and don't understand what impact that has compared to being on a salary for someone else. And, you know, the freelance, and that as well, just talking about pandemic and how that changed the economy. You know, it was a lot of freelancers, a lot of contractors, a lot of small business owners like hairdressers, beauticians and and all of those people that form such a part of our economy. And on our there's a lot of women there, they're over represented in a lot of these businesses that maybe didn't qualify for furlough, or had been contracted in two different roles on to then also, I'm not sure if this is the podcast to discuss it on but another soapbox that I find myself on often as the emotional labour of the pandemic, and the way that women were kind of stepping into that, you know, even if you'd had a career or if you still have a career, the childcare elements of the pandemic came into play, and what you said about that, you know, having that foundation of well, and that portfolio is, is a protection, when things like that happen. So not to sound like someone who's interviewing you for a job. But what do you see for a black girl money in the next kind of two 310 years? Like, what do you want to happen with it? Oh, that's an interesting question. This is actually the first time anyone's asked me. So first and foremost, I wanted to reach as many My ultimate goal is for it to reach as many not just black girls just as many women as possible, just because it's black on money, and that the niche obviously is targeted at Black women. I want it to reach as many women as possible in the next 510 years, whether that's through social media, whether that's through whatever the podcast that we're launching, whether that's through the YouTube channel, I just wanted to reach as many women as possible to show them that this is possible to show them that it's like finance is not this complicated thing that ever people on wall street or in Canary Wharf, do all day, like you can do it too. You can understand how to take control of your personal finance, at least to a certain extent, in terms of for myself and the brand. Particularly wanted to grow to accept an extent to be to reach as many people as possible. I think that's that's the ultimate goal. Yeah, I mean, it's already doing well in that challenge. You know, you are reaching and I think that and what I love about your description of your get getting successful black women to tell their stories as well is so important. Because, you know, for me, for me as a white woman, well you know, there's plenty of things pushing, like whenever women get to the top of the board, you know, not whenever, but nine times out of 10. It's a white woman, you know that that's been happening, there's been visibility. I like it that this is because I feel like it sends a signal to, you know, to audiences like me and other people that there are some stories that you're not getting. And here they are. Yeah, you know, and I think that's really important, because the challenges are different. And there are certain obstacles that were in my way that, that I understand. But there's a tonne of other obstacles in the way of other women who have disability or are not cisgendered or are from other ethnic minorities who are not pasty white Scottish person. There's lots of everyone has different obstacles. And I think if we want to give them that discover economics is all about improving access, and widening access and getting more diversity, we've got to make sure that it's not just about getting people in the door, but once they're in the door, that there's a safe and supportive space for everyone. Because if one of the things that I was always very conscious of I started my career in the oil industry, and there were definitely women who were quite senior in the oil industry, but they weren't opening the door behind that. They were kind of like they'd gotten into this really male environment and and you know, did what they had to do to get to survive in that male environment, we didn't always feel like they were keeping the door open or building a better environment within that space. And that's something I'm very conscious of. And I think that by by starting something up like black girl money, I think one of the knock on effects, obviously, focusing on black women and giving, having that community and that resource on helping as many black women as possible. And also, like you said, reaching other women, but also what that means is that other women who look like me, can learn what the unique experiences are of women who don't look like us. And then we can help to hopefully be more aware of any microaggressions in the workplace or other things that we is not it's maybe not obvious to us, but it should be. And there's no reason why we can't educate ourselves because we need to look out for each other, even if looking out for each other means finding the challenges that we don't have. Yeah, you know, it's so it's so interesting, you brought discovery economics into this just because at the core of what discovery economics is it's widen, like you said, finding participation, sure, and representation and I feel like as a black woman that's very, very important into cuz I talked to like I talk to black women on the daily basis, or my friends, my family. And one thing I've realised is a huge thing that puts a lot of us off, whether it's weather going for jobs, taking up certain opportunities, it's almost like, I can't do it, because there's no one who looks like me there so I can't do it. And not everyone is like me, not everyone is as like, oh, if I see a group of said, I just want to I want to push into every room I can possibly get in like I was raised to give my parents the ultimate thanks for this I was raised to, to believe I can just I can if I work hard enough. And I put in enough effort I can be in any room. I want to be no matter if anyone looks like me in that room. And I give my parents the ultimate things for this. But you know what the rest of us should do? Because that is a hard thing to do. But if if parents like yours didn't raise women like you to walk into those rooms that no one ever would. So you know, it's not just without benefits you obviously benefits. benefits everyone else as well. Yeah. Shout out to my mom, I'm sure she'd love to. Yeah, you're completely right. The reality is not a lot of this. Not everyone is like me. And I think it's important to get people in those rooms. And but in regards to what you said, just once they do get in the rooms, they know exactly trying to push or they know exactly trying to pull people up. And I understand that to an extent because you're already a minority in those rooms. And there could be a lot of pressure and there could be you're you're trying to fight for your own career for your own goals. It's not always easy to open the doors behind you. So I completely understand women in that scenario. But the thing about me is I've just always wanted to share like I don't do very well, just being on my own read, like my natural personality is just to share what I learn whether it's I'm talking about economics, I'm talking about finance to that extent. It really went into BGM. And the creation of it. I think we lost the question. No, that's okay. I think it wasn't really a question. I think we're just Yeah, like it just an important element of any kind of widening access programme, I think is looking beyond getting people in the door. And that's what I think that the types of content, the type of content that you're putting out, I think it really helps with that and I think that social media is, you know, such a great platform for that, because you can get people like me, one of my favourite things on social is to be a lurker. And I tell people to, like, be like, you can follow people who have totally different lives from you totally different experiences from you. And look, yeah, you can learn, you listen, you learn, you can absorb all of these experiences, so that you understand things better. And, again, that's why it's so great that you've chosen the platforms that you have as well. And obviously, we'll be including links to this in the in the show notes and stuff like that. But let me let me take a step back into discover economics for a second because I know that you said earlier, like, you talk to a lot of young people, you are a young person, you're you know, you've just done your undergrad, you're you're doing your MSC. So if you were to sit down with teachers, you know, across the UK, and give them advice about Look, I know I'm a particular type of person, my parents have lined me up to walk into the room. But there are a tonne of children in your classrooms that could be excellent in that room, but they won't walk into it without your help. So what advice would you give to teachers to help those students in their care to get the confidence to walk into those rooms. First of all, I admire teachers everywhere, like admire what they do, like never be a teacher, just because I feel like it takes so much effort, discipline, patience. But what I would say is, make the extra effort to pick on that not pick on that. That's not the word for it to listen to the the person who might not raise their hand up all the time, who might not talk all the time. It's really interesting because especially with, especially with girls, I was watching this TED talk the other day with Sheryl Sandberg at Facebook. She's the she's a senior level executive at Facebook. And she said, she said she did a talk. And she asked a question. And what she said was we try and get this really fast. She said, only one more question. And she asked one more question. And she asked another one, that's just another one. But what she realised is after, after she said, No more questions, some people still left their hands up on the Roman. So the women put their hands down, even after she said, I'm not taking more questions, the men put their hands up. And I think that's a huge thing we do as women as we tend to take a step back very easily. So what I would say to teachers, it's be aware of it, because it's so much easier to solve a problem when you're aware of it. And it's not like I'm different. We all we all fought fought to this, we weren't always aware of everything going on around us. But just be aware that there might be a girl in your classroom, or there might be a student from an ethnic minority in your classroom who might not necessarily raise their hands up. But they know the answer, they have all these great ideas, it's a huge waste of human capital, for them to be put off, just because they're not confident enough. So I'd say the biggest thing is be aware. And I think as a teacher, with all the training and everything, you know, as a teacher, once you're aware of the problem, because I might teach us to very good at solving, they're very good at getting participation is just to be aware of that there is a kid at the back of your classroom who might not necessarily be your stereotypical outgoing child, but that child will have so much ideas that they can contribute. So that's one thing i would i would say and just pick on them, motivate them, inspire them, even if it's making extra effort to increase the visual diversity in your resources. So for example, we BGM when I make content, if you would look, if you look on Instagram page, it's when getting my cartoons because I do what I I'm a very like in my head, I'd like to think I'm artistic, I use dark skin tone cartoons, which is harder than I thought to find. But just that and that's such a very little detail. But to me, it has an effect on the psychology of the person looking at it, they can just see themselves more. So that's one thing I'd I'd say. Just be aware. So two things I guess I said two things. One is be aware that the that there are people who have all these ideas that might be too afraid to raise their hands up and also just try to increase diversity and visuals that you use to teach. There's a my Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought up that second one because we haven't talked about that before. But it's so important like that thing of being able to see yourself and and I love it because I do I love your Instagram and you're definitely artistic and that's something that I noticed about your illustrations, like you said, making sure that not just that you obviously have representations of black women, but you have representations of the whole spectrum of black women so that everyone feels like Luckily, they are seen. And, and particularly, I actually I've just went and click like, again on an image that is on your site. So you'll know which one I mean, but there is the cutest picture. And I think it's going to post those three things you should always invest. And I think, the cutest little picture I've seen in such a long time. And I love it, because I can really imagine like little girls who look like thought, like seeing that, and not just seeing that on social media. But seeing that in the context of I am talking about finance, and I'm talking about wealth, and I'm talking about investment, and I'm talking about these topics that are very white, middle class male. And that's exactly talking about those topics. And, and I think that is like an absolute delight that you've thought about that so carefully. And that's something that teachers can do, because I do often think that there are potentially let's see, white teachers who want to maybe increase the diversity of their, like you said, their teaching materials, and all of that kind of stuff, but really don't know where to start or are scared that they will make a mistake or scared that they will offend someone. And that's why I think that the lurking on social media is so important, because actually, if you follow people, you know, like a black girl money, but I follow up a cycle, a black woman who's a psychologist, and she's amazing, and I'll send you her link after this also, I'll fire over because you will love her. And she really talks specifically about her experience, and anonymously the experiences of the women that she works with and her patients and and also her experience of her young child, she's got a girl, she's got a boy, and what their experiences of discrimination in the classroom look like on the very specific things that she deals with. And if you're a teacher, and you follow people like thought, you can quickly learn what you should be doing without necessarily asking for the emotional labour of a black woman or someone else who's an ethnic minority, like there's a lot out there that you can access without having to ask someone else to teach you who is already very stretched. You know, I know right? He has to deal with stuff. And I'm so glad you said that. Because there's there's a wealth of information out there, the internet is a beautiful thing, isn't it is you can if you want to learn something, you can find anything if you want to. And I feel like if you're put off by asking a black woman, which you're right, sometimes it's like I'm not, I love being an advocate for black women. But I don't really want to do that every day. Like I would just want to be a professional person, an economist, a student of woman, and sometimes I might not want to answer this question. So I completely agree with you lurking on the internet that like everything I learned everything I learned about personal finance once from the internet, it might have been easier for me to understand or comprehend that because I did do an economics degree, but the information is out there. So the same way with teachers trying to learn about the struggles of the ethnic minority students going on the internet, learning about their and social media, again, goes hand in hand, the internet is not the beautiful thing if you follow the right people, I remember when I realised I personally call it the Instagram hack, what I realised is Instagram, what it does is you can really change this is what I try to enforce a lot in BGM you can really change the way you think, depending on how your Instagram looks like because we spend so much time on social media that sometimes we don't even realise it. And we're consuming that information. And it's affecting, like reorientate in the way we think our perceptions, our thoughts very subtly and simply by following finance instagramers by following economics instagramers News instagramers I found my the things I think about on a daily basis changed what like in my final year of my economics degree by simply by changing who I follow it because of that information I consume a lot every day. So little things like that can really help it can really just to educate yourself. And I think it just makes you a better person. And I'm a huge person again, because of my parents on learning curiosity. So I always want to know what's going on in the world around me. So that's a huge, that's a huge way to do it. And in terms of representation with with BG BGM Yeah, in terms of cartoons, I just I love animations. And because the content is so finance can be as much as I love talking about economics and finance. I know some people just it's not that fascinating. So I had to I had to find a way to feed this information that would make people actually want to stop and listen, I understand they might be interested in it. Or they might be because of brand media of pandemic but to consume that information isn't the easiest thing. So I have to find a way to make it digestible. And I think cartoons was the best way of doing that. That's how we learn as children. A lot of us learn through cartoons as children and I really went back to that untapped back into what do we find fascinating. And that was one way, the same thing with discover economics. When I create content for that I try to, I just try to make whatever content I'm trying to produce, whether it's for discover economics, or BGM. I just try to make it fun. That's all my ultimate goal is to make it enjoyable. I'm not trying to produce long articles, academic journals for people to consume, just to make fun things. We can learn things by. Like you don't have to stop having fun or stop learning in a fun way. Just because you're growing up. I'm a big kid. That's probably that's probably why but that's that's that's my personal belief. Learning isn't necessarily boring. It doesn't just end when you finish your degree or when you finish school. Well, I think, I guess if this is a nerd, and I think you can make learning fun. That's my ultimate. That's my ultimate goal with any content I'm producing with anything I do anything I want to share with people and with my siblings. That's probably why my siblings haven't been bored of me yet. Because every time I try to relate it to something they find interesting like my little brother, he's he's intrigued obsessed with football. So I'm always like, and they do all these contract changes and football, I'm not going to pretend to be a football. Like No. But I know I always tried to say okay, this is the reason for this. This is this is the financial economic analysis of this in a way a nine year old can understand it. If you relate economics and finance to someone's life, they'll, I promise you, they'll pick it up so easily. That's one thing I found is just relating it to things they do on a daily basis, because they can connect with it more hence, and improves understanding. I bet there's a lot of teachers listening to this right now and thinking, Oh, I knew I wish that you had a lesson plan for that thing that you explained to your nine year old brother and how you relate to economics. Because that would be amazing to do with my class you know what if you know I have a LinkedIn and Instagram if you literally just drop me a you drop me a message that I would be happy to create a me the lesson plan. I love creating things. That's just I think that's a huge thing about content creations. I just love producing content and creating infographics are the sort of thing, it's what I do. And we're very grateful you do it's so interesting to hear us talk Anu because like what you're saying about curiosity, like that's what I got from my parents as well. And and I tell people all the time, like you cannot stop learning. And actually, even if you wanted to, that's tough, because it happens anyway, that you know, you're always learning whether you like or not. And I think that that's really important. And there's a big cross over actually in what you do and what I work on, because I obviously focus on digital skills and that area and, and I think that there is such a crossover between just being curious. And it doesn't really matter which area you're trying to break into. Just keep that curiosity and you can apply it to a million different things. And it is lovely to you talk about that. I want to just I've got two final questions I want to squeeze in before I lose you. The first one is, what would you see to date that you are most proud of? This might be a little bit of a cheat to the question. But I think I'm most proud of the cheesy as it sounds, the woman I am today, in a sense, not necessarily beat the physical things I've achieved. It's more the things I've achieved internally for myself, I've so this is why I said the spirit of love tied you to the question, you said my bio. And you see in the beginning, you read out my bio, and you read out all these lists of things that I've done. And I can't really pick one that I'm most proud of, because I feel like they all come together, they all make me they all make who I am. And I'm very proud of the person, they've all they've added some way to who I am today. So I guess my biggest achievement is where I am at this point in my life, in terms of my academics in terms of BGM in terms of discover economics, I think I'm at a point where I'm able to share the things I love with people on as well as take that curiosity I had as a kid and just apply it to every aspect of my life. And I'm still growing. I'm fairly in the beginning of my career, my professional and my, I'm probably close to the end of my academic career, but I'm in the beginning of my professional career. And my biggest achievement is just where I'm not as the content of the person I am now which is a combination of everything I've achieved till today because like I said, I wanted to study medicine. And at that point, I was very young, I think it was 1718 or not, not really understanding what I wanted to do with my life. But now I have a clear vision. And I'm very proud of that. I think that's what I should do. That's what I'm most proud of having a clear vision of what I want with my life because I'm still at the beginning. I think there's still things I'm going to achieve. Oh my goodness, there are definitely a million things. a million things. Yeah, I think you're 100% correct. You know, to be like says, to see how all of those things have kind of contributed to who you are today and your vision for the future. And this is why I'm really pleased that we're interviewing you, because I'm hoping that any students listening, and parents and teachers listening, please play this to your students, because this is an important part of an individual's growth, especially at your age, you know, and coming out of education is focusing on that kind of internal monologue if you like, and that internal confidence and acknowledgement of what you've done so far, especially because I imagine if you're listening to this in 2021, and you're a student, and you've just been through a year, 18 months of some very disrupted education, and you know, it's been a really huge challenge for everyone that to get to this point, and know where you are, and where you want to get to. There's not a lot of people who can probably say that. So I think that alone is a really big achievement that you should be proud of. And just to finish off with my last question, if you could give just one tiny bit of advice to parents like so imagine that they don't have children as dedicated and nerdy as you and perhaps their children are a little bit more, maybe not reaching their full potential, or really not sure if the direction they want to take and the way you talked about economics earlier, and how good it is for everybody to have that kind of foundational literacy in economics, what advice would you give to parents who are looking at their kids, maybe they're teenagers and thinking, Oh, I need to help them with some direction? What advice would you give, try out in this world, say to parents try and collaborate with your child to try and find out what they're interested in? Because I think one thing that can happen, I do it to my younger siblings, as always, because I have so many young siblings, I can sort of answer something I'm not parenting, but I can anticipate the kind of mind dependent either do you want your child to succeed, and you want to what you want for them, but I think, try and collaborate with them to find their their path to success, it's so much easier to point a child in my opinion, in the right direction, if you're working with them, rather than telling them what to do, especially because I'm on myself, I'd like to 15 1617 I thought I knew the world, I thought I like was the smallest person ever. And at that point that you've built, they've built up enough cognitive ability to know what they want in their life, at least to a certain degree, but they need guidance, because they're so young. So I'd say at that point, try and work with them, rather than enforcing what you want on them or what you think they should be doing. It's easier, because then they see you as a teammate, like it was like you're a team, you when you're a child, like me, Mom and Dad, like we're a team, and I'm the ultimate goal is it's my success. So I would say ask your kids like, what do you want to do? Why do you want to do this? This is what I think rather than Oh my god, you're not doing this, this is what you should do. I would just ask one piece of advice. Like I often think that's how that's how I plan hopefully, to raise my kids it's it's from a very young age is to work collaboratively with them. And and it's not just with teenagers, I say my nine year old brother because kids are so I proceed to this so intelligent, absorb so much from very young age. And I feel sometimes as adults, we think like, Oh, I know better. I know this, which is true, because we have all the information we are wise. But Gee, there's a lot you can unlock in a child from I can tell for my younger siblings by just talking with them and talking with them as like, on a certain level, not like a condescending manner just being this is what I think and you'd be very surprised how intelligent and how much a child can absorb and think. So yeah, that's my advice to parents work collaboratively with them to find out their path to success if I was to put it in the sentence. Brilliant. That was so good. And thank you so much. Thank you so much for letting me interview you. Of course, I really enjoyed this. This was brilliant. And I'm sure I'll be able to lobby you to get back on again and answer more questions. And that's that for that episode. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. And if you want to get in touch with any questions, please visit our website to discover economics.co.uk, where you'll also find loads of useful resources. 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